Curse

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I have had many arguments on Guild Wars. Everything from philosophy and ethics to religion and morality. However I have come across individuals who don't exactly seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed and seem to think if they scream their ideas repeatedly they are right. I would like to note I am not a troll. Last argument I had was over scammers.

Now this person I was arguing with was an idiot in my book. The argument started simple enough. It was some guy offering to buy any dye for 90 gold in pre-searing Fort Ranik. Now some player comes along and starts yelling to everyone that he is a scammer. It was a female monk. First thing I do is whisper her to be quiet and leave others trying to make money alone. Not: I am not the one offering to buy dye. She says something along the lines of "He is a scammer and everyone must know and that dye is worth more in post do not sell here". I reply that he is not a scammer, merely someone trying to make gold.

My argument for this is that buying from someone who does not know the true value of an item is not wrong. Example: Suppose you went to a pawn shop or a garage sale and you find something like an antique or other item that you know it is easily worth 500 dollars but the seller is only asking 50. You wouldn't tell the seller its worth 500 and that you will give them that much for it. If you do you are an idiot. Although while not saying this to her I would have been more passive in doing this and only buy from single players in explorable zones or by whispering identified newbs and child gamers when they are found to have dye.

She argues that I am a scammer and am basically evil for it. She continues to scream that this guy is a scammer while I try to shut her up. After the third time of telling her to stop being an emo and shutup I tell the guy to go somewhere else and that he can't buy here with this one around.

The argument then begins to heat up. Now I know my opponent was not a bright person, since she would repeatedly attempt to mock yell words by capitalizing all the letters in it. Example: "I am RIGHT scamming is WRONG and your WRONG". I tell her again that I am no scammer merely what I like to call a Passive Exploitive Situationalist. If an oppertunity presents itself its best to take it before someone else does, but one should not intentionally create situations such as this. There is nothing wrong with buying a dye from a noob or child player who doesn't know its value.

My defenition of noob: An idiotic player who prefers not to think for himself and be told everything or a player who will ask someone a question before trying to find the answer on their own. I believe if the means are available you should try to find answers on your own and only ask others when you have no other way to get an answer since many people will lie because it either benefits them (altough this is not always a bad thing) or they simply enjoy lieing (these people I dispise the most since they have no reasoning or logic behind their actions). Definiton of child gamer: A player who is not mature, who expects everything to be handed to them, and whines when things don't go in their favor. There is nothing wrong with exploiting an identified child gamer (or a gamer with the mind of a child) because they are selfish and only see their own benefit as being important, most of them are whinos, and most think way to highly of themselves IMHO. I believe that society teaches kids the wrong things anyway, these days they are taught they should have everything handed to them and that world is nothing but good (I hate people who try to sheild their children from every single thing they perceive as evil, potentially "corrupting their child's impressionable mind", or is a threat to their own values) and that they are capable of doing anything they want when they get older, they aren't what you can do is always restricted in some form be it financial, law, or simply personal ability. Its better to teach them now that the world of is full of people who will expoit them for their own gain rather than suddenly shock them into reality.

She then tells me that scamming is the same as stealing and all stealing is wrong. At this point I see an oppertunity to trip her. I reply "What if someone were starving to death and had no money their only option could be to steal". She says "Situational ethics don't apply here"
I say "I know but you said all". She then acts as if I didn't say that, kinda funny on my part.

I also tell her their is nothing wrong with stealing if who you are stealing from does not realise it or later realise who has done it. I then say I know you are right but I am right aswell. She responds "Both of us can't be right your WRONG". I say "Right and wrong are relative. Everyone is right in their own mind. Hitler thought he was right IN HIS OWN MIND, but no one else thought so". Note: I do not normally capitalize entire words as such, the reason for it was so that what was being said was not twisted or only part of the sentence was taken out of context and to stress I am no Hitler sympathizer (people have a tendancy of interpetting words beyond their original meaning). She then ends the conversation by basically saying "I am right you are wrong, shutup". Then she ignores me.

I apologize for ranting. Please tell me what you think of exploiting unkowledgeable players.

Amity and Truth · Oct 20, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Please... i'm sure you've got something important to say but please... include paragraphs will you?

Tachyon · Oct 20, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Paragraphs FTW!

Tyggen · Oct 20, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

1. Remove her name

2. Add 6-7 paragraphs, that was horrible to read

3. If I see someone selling a black dye for 90 gold I tell them what it's worth, if others are petty enough to exploit that then so be it.

SirJackassIII · Oct 20, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

First of, you can't name players, so the names are going to be snipped.

Second, use "Enter" a bit next time, or at least with /end Wall O' text <.<

Thirdly, I can't say I fully agree with you. While I'll probably not pass up the opportunity if someone were to sell Black dye for 100g, scamming people just for the fun of it isn't fun for the people you're playing with. No one likes being scammed, since it kind of ruins the fun you have while playing. Though the 90g for any dye thing is a pretty good deal in Pre-Searing safe from dealing Silver and Black Dye, it's not really a scam for the other dyes which aren't worth that as much and a good deal for beginning players that don't have a lot of gold yet or veterans needing space while trying to get level 20 in Pre.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

That Better?

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

First of, you can't name players, so the names are going to be snipped.

Second, use "Enter" a bit next time, or at least with /end Wall O' text <.<

Thirdly, I can't say I fully agree with you. While I'll probably not pass up the opportunity if someone were to sell Black dye for 100g, scamming people just for the fun of it isn't fun for the people you're playing with. No one likes being scammed, since it kind of ruins the fun you have while playing. Though the 90g for any dye thing is a pretty good deal in Pre-Searing safe from dealing Silver and Black Dye, it's not really a scam for the other dyes which aren't worth that as much and a good deal for beginning players that don't have a lot of gold yet or veterans needing space while trying to get level 20 in Pre.

1. I never said I scam for fun.
2.Their is nothing wrong with naming someone.
3. I fixed the paragraphs.

Tyggen · Oct 20, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

You're not allowed to use other players names without their permission, remove it or a mod will do it for you.

Amity and Truth · Oct 20, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

It's better, the name is still in it though.
Well, basically most GuildWars Players do not really know what scamming really is. They use it as a word for everything where someone else receives the lower end of a trade and by the sheer nature of trades it is not a question of if but a question of how much you are getting "scammed".
Basically in all essence the whole Black Dye Argument or other "abuse missing knowledge" is nothing more but a form of buy low sell high.

After all, market knowledge is key and the first thing i do in a game is to get someone who knows the value of things and is willed to answer me a question or two until i know the value myself or can find it myself.

Now that is a thing many Guild Wars (and onlineplayers in total) confuse about the whole concept. It's not scamming. Scamming is something completely different. If you sell a Mursaat Token as an Ecto... that's a scam. If you somehow manage to make a weapon appear as something else ... that's a scam. Someone putting a lower amount of money into the trade window than bargained for is a scammer.
Scamming in onlinegames is if you willingly advertise or barter for one thing and then during the real trade you exchange it for something else in the hope another person doesn't notice.

This has nothing to do with normal trading.
If the seller agrees on 90 g for a black dye and the buyer does so as well it's a perfectly fine trade. It's out of balance, no doubt but it is still following the principle of buy low sell high. As i said before, it's not a question of if you're winning or losing on a trade but moreover a question of by how much you win or lose.

Besides, yes posting of names is violating the Board Rules you agreed upon when you signed up for it. I'd remove it for this thread to have a future. It's not a matter of if.. it's a matter of just fricking do it :P

Trvth Jvstice · Oct 20, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Taking advantage of a single opportunity to make a nice profit is fine. Purposefully targeting new players to rip them off is not. Though buying something for much less than it's actual worth is not a scam as defined by Anet or GWGuru or Guildwiki

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyggen

You're not allowed to use other players names without their permission, remove it or a mod will do it for you.

Happy now?

thezed · Oct 20, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

My argument for this is that buying from someone who does not know the true value of an item is not wrong.

It is not illegal. But it is unethical, in real life and in games. I would not hesitate to let a player know they were getting conned (as that may be a better term for this kind of activity).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

She then tells me that scamming is the same as stealing and all stealing is wrong. At this point I see an oppertunity to trip her. I reply "What if someone were starving to death and had no money their only option could be to steal". She says "Situational ethics don't apply here"
I say "I know but you said all". She then acts as if I didn't say that, kinda funny on my part.

IMO, ALL stealing is wrong, even if you are starving. But I have a strickter ethics code then many.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Thank you Amity and Truth, That was the point I wanted to get across. Its not scamming when both agree on the price even if one trader is unknowlegeable.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I have found certain so called ethics will get in the way of progress most of the time.

Stemnin · Oct 20, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

My argument for this is that buying from someone who does not know the true value of an item is not wrong. Example: Suppose you went to a pawn shop or a garage sale and you find something like an antique or other item that you know it is easily worth 500 dollars but the seller is only asking 50. You wouldn't tell the seller its worth 500 and that you will give them that much for it. If you do you are an idiot.

You are saying the seller wants 50. In the story you wrote, the seller has no clue, no knowledge of the price, and the buyer is the one who wants it for 50.

Quote:

I apologize for ranting. Please tell me what you think of exploiting unkowledgeable players.

I think we should give those without knowledge, the knowledge they need to succeed and not be exploited.

I'm done, no need to quote me, I won't be returning to this particular thread.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Correction on 3rd paragraph: The seller thinks it worth 50 and doesn't know that it is worth 500. Not that the seller is choosing to sell it for 50 while knowing the true value.

thezed · Oct 20, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Gorilla_Man

I have found certain so called ethics will get in the way of progress most of the time.

IMO, progress at the expense of ethics and doing what is right is not progress at all.

Navaros · Oct 20, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Using the exscuse "The person I scammed was ignorant of the fact that I was scamming him" is not justifiable reason to be a scammer. Stop scamming. The player who said you were scamming was right.

Master_Gorilla_Man · Oct 20, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by thezed

IMO, progress at the expense of ethics and doing what is right is not progress at all.

I would like to note that centuries ago many societies thought it was unethical to use a dead body for medical research (some still do), but this got in the way of advancement of medical science.

SirShadowrunner · Oct 20, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

If I remember right there is no dye trader in pre-searing coreect ?????
On my first toon thru the game, I remember selling all dyes to the merchant
including a black dye, then I get to post Ascalon and what do you know a dye
trader selling black dye for 8k, that sure would have been nice to know.

So imo anyone back in pre-sear trying to buy black and silver dyes for 100g
is a scammer, because there is no way to verify what it is worth, so how
can you possibly know what to sell it for ??????

Now if there is a dye trader in pre-sear, then ignore scam comment and
learn what all the npc's are for.

Sirshadowrunner